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Thread Title: 5 year rule
Created On Thursday December 11, 2008 9:47 AM


feelin it
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Thursday December 11, 2008 9:47 AM

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My five years is coming up soon and I want to know if my case has not closed if any new and further will be allowed or not ,after the five years .

I guess I want to know if they just keep objecting to parts of my injury long enough can it just get dismissed after five years from date of injury?

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STEVEPSCA@YAHOO.COM
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Thursday December 11, 2008 10:45 AM

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That SOL is for 're-opening' a claim that has either 'settled' by a s
Stipulation w/Award, or a Finding & Award/Order... your claim is still open, so any 'new and further' disabililty would be done through an amended application for adjudication...

After the SOL tolls, on the 5 years to re-open, any additional issue, medically speaking, would be handled as 'compensable consequenc'... but no additional PD/WPI% would be added.

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feelin it
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Thursday December 11, 2008 1:46 PM

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Thanks I am fine with that I just don't want to lose the medical part why they fight it out!!

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mkomkom
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Thursday December 18, 2008 9:18 AM

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You should know that the 5-year SOL does run, but there is another extension for 1 year from your last treatment. You should be treating or you should be worried about the 5-year, if you currently have no award.

It sounds like you have an Award? IF it includes FMC, then that is for life.

If you give us some more facts, I could be more specific...

EDIT: I just read part of your other post. If you have an attorney, I am assuming he filed an application. If you have an application on file, the SOL does not apply to that injury.


Edited: Thursday December 18, 2008 at 9:21 AM by mkomkom

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STEVEPSCA@YAHOO.COM
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Thursday December 18, 2008 11:35 AM

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There was quite a discussion on your side (pro) regarding the 1 year issue you bring up here... I don't recall that that ever actually resolved anything...

I have never seen any reference to the 1 year since last receipt of benefit (treatment) having any bearing on the claim...(?)
I think the discussion was between LCS and Ginger... LCS brought up the 1 year from last treatment issue, Ginger provided the 'con' side.
I'll have to go back and see if I can find that post again ....

None the less, I'm interested in your further remarks here...



And on this statement...'... If you have an attorney, I am assuming he filed an application. If you have an application on file, the SOL does not apply to that injury.', .... I got totally lost on this one.
Application....as in Application for Adjudication...?
And how does that affect a SOL ?

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Thursday December 18, 2008 7:36 PM

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we did discuss this ad nauseum....recall

the five years for a petition to reopen has run in the Original Poster's case.

He does not have any type of settlement at this time so if he stips his case at this time, then he is not eligible to reopen his case for any new and further disability. There is no new and further disabilty allowed if the five year has run PERIOD, no more no mas.

The SOL referenced here does not apply when an application was timely filed at the WCAB and it was in this matter. You have to specify which five year SOL you are speaking about because there are two.



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Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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postscript2
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Friday December 19, 2008 7:20 PM

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Hi All:

To clear up the "forum" on which this was originally "posted," it was "Stipulations" by "Feelin It." It wasn't on the "pro" side, but this forum on 11-10-08.

I still hold to the fact that if a case has not Stipulated (S&A) or had a Finding and or Order of Award, there is still a one year extension for new and further. I know that the BROAD extension of "BENEFITS" also pertains to "medical treatment..." HOWEVER, this is not what I've learned or practiced over 22 years as a C/A. My interpretation is from ONE YEAR from an provision of an AWARD for P.D. Of course, I could be wrong-but after all this time, it's been the routine procedure. This is why I/C's and TPA's want to settle, settle, settle, and "lock in P.D." Otherwise, as Ginger has stated (paraphrase) no more P.D. once you've settled-just a compensatory consequence.... If not filed within the 5 years from DOI. She is totally correct that most, if not all, AA's will diary a claim for the last day of the 5th year to file for new and further... Been there and done that.

It still remains my opinion, that until your case is settled via and ORDER from a WCAB Judge, then you still have a one year extension after that... JMHO.

If you C&R (Compromise and Release)-then its all done!

I quoted "Herlick," and Ginger disagreed. No harm, no foul--just a difference of opinion.

I've a few more thoughts to contribute to this:

1) How can an I/W file for new and further, unless there is an AWARD of PD?
2) I understand the consequences of "new and further," but unless the I/W is working for the "same" ER, then likely the adjusting agency will try and blame it on subsequent employment... and drag them in...

LCS


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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Saturday December 20, 2008 8:40 AM

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and when this discussion moved to the pro side there was not one person or judge who agreed that you are allowed to file for new and further indemnity -- which is some form of TD or PD as PS has presented it, they said the one year in the statute referred to vocational rehabilitation entitlement. It is difficult to believe that if this was a possible scenario that someone like James Stewart who literraly writes the book on case law on some other attorney who walks with thunder and lightening at the WCAB would have not posted. So it was not a simple Ginger vs. PS agreement. It is a PS vs. the entire workcomp central forum disagreement.

IF there was an allowance otherwise, this would have made the news and huge case law....so don't hold your breath on that, in that not one work comp judge or attorney agreed with the scenario that PS is proposing. There has been no case law stated that supports the scenario proposed. The plain reading of the statutes does not support this position either.

Jake Jacobsmeyer, past president of CAAA, long time applicant attorney prior to moving to a defense attorney, disagreed with PS as well, a thunder and lightening -- very technically astute and brillant attorney, said no way. I suggest you read the pro side discussion thread, which I will try to post the name of shortly and then someone like art will come along and post a link, because I don't know how.

I think any injured worker holding their breath on PS's position will be irrevocably harmed, so again it is important to state that Herlick's discussion did not apply to the new and further disability as related to indemnity only to vocational rehabilitation which is over in 11 days....and we have no clue what will happen to retro benefits due under the VR statues either...

If you have any doubt when settling your case, ask your judge. I spoke to many when this controversy arose in this forum and the bottom line remains, unless you are seeing some stars in the East, and a miracle is about to occur, you cannot rely on this position --- NO insurance company on the planet is going to bend to this reasoning without evidence and none has been presented yet that is persuasive.





-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Saturday December 20, 2008 8:48 AM

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the thread is called SOL for "new and further" started by postscript on 11/14/08

Here is Jake Jacobsmyer response....

The reference to ability to reopen within 1 year of an F & A or C & R only applied to an initial request for VR benefits which had a special statute of limitations that allowed benefits to be requested even beyond the 5 years in a very limited number of circumstances.


then James Stewart responded....

LC 5405 is a nasty little statute, IMHO. You can't understand it without doing a lot of reading of other statutes.

The way I understand the interplay between LC 5405 and and LC 5410 (the 5 year statute) is that an applicant has the greater of EITHER 5 years from the date of injury OR one year from the last voluntary provision of medical treatment, or I believe TD, to file an Ap.

Usually bells go off on the 5 year anniversary, so TD is seldom paid beyond that date voluntarily, however, if an EE is in pro per and no Ap has been filed with medical treatment every 3 months or so, after 5 years the statute is extended by 1 year under 5405 each time treatment is voluntarily provided.

Suppose someone has had an injury, but medical treatment has been provided for a long time. That happened in So. Calif. vs WCAB (Stokes) 4 CWCR 87, 41 CCC 260 where an Ap was not filed until 20 years after an injury, but within 1 year of treatment being voluntarily furnished where where the ER had not advised the EE the injury was being handled "non-industrially." (I believe there was also an estoppel element here.)

There are not a lot of cites. See McDaniel vs WCAB 55 CCC 72 where voluntary provision of medical care by the employer tolled the 1 year statute until denied by the employer when the statute began to run.

Also see Calif W/C Law and Practice Sec 18:20, 22. This is Judge St.Clair's book, though now authors include David G. Marcus, Richard L. Newman and Alexander Wong. The Continuing Education of the Bar book discusses it at sec 12.31.

Last of all, after 1975 rehab was originally considered as being included in L.C. 5405 along with TD, PD and medical treatment, however, a special rehab section was added I believe in 1991 or 1993 and then deleted by SB 899. The section is the "former Section 5405.5," one of the famous "Ghost statutes" noted in the present L.C. 139.5(f), laying out code sections and time limits for requesting rehab services.

then Jake Jacobsmyer responded.....



I beleive Stew is correct that as long as benefits are being provded the statute of limitations is continuously moving out to 1 year from the last provision of benefit.

Many years ago I represented an employee who had been injured in a powder plant explosion in 1947. When he walked into my office in 1981, I was able with little difficulty to get him his 50% PD award (about $6000 at 1947 rates) and an award of medical care.


So the five years and one year issue applies only when an application has NOT been filed and VR has not been resolved.





-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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postscript2
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Saturday December 20, 2008 6:35 PM

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OK:

You stated:

"I think any injured worker holding their breath on"PS's" position will be irrevocably harmed, so again it is important to state that Herlick's discussion did not apply to the new and further disability as related to indemnity only to vocational rehabilitation which is over in 11 days....and we have no clue what will happen to retro benefits due under the VR statues either..."

Response:

To All I/W's--

Don't take "my" advice as the "Gospel..." In fact--don't take my "response" as credible at all... If a person has to stoop to asking Judges at the WCAB to confirm their "posts," I find that hard to believe! Judges don't have the time to read "posts" on WCC, let alone get through the day without a few "martini's."

As far as I/W's being "irrevocably harmed;" this is a "forum." I always end my posts with "I may be wrong, or "others may differ..." That is called "ettiquite." (sp?)

I've never "bashed you," and wont' in the future. I am appalled that you "May" think that I'm trying to lead the I/W's on this forum down the merry road to disaster.

I'm not going to bring this subject up again--I don't need to go to the WCAB and find a "Judge," whom has so much time on her/his hands as to read a "post" from WCC..." In their "spare time..."

I've tried to be kind, understanding and even backed "YOU" up.

God Bless, take care, AND happy holidays....

I'll continue this on the "pro-side," if necessary. I don't wish anyone any ill-will, bad advice or high hopes. If I didn't believe that what I posted was what I believe to be true, then I wouldn't "post" anything... at all!

LCS

Life is too short--enjoy while you can; and although we can agree to disagree--such is the making of a forum...

Edited: Saturday December 20, 2008 at 6:43 PM by postscript2

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Sunday December 21, 2008 1:24 AM

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I did not invite any judges to read the forum, I am in the courtrooms day after day and was asking an academic question to see if I had missed anything. I did not refer to this forum, just brought it up as an academic point. However, many of the judges know me as a zealous advocate for injured workers and brought it up on their own. Please recall work comp is a very small world in reality.

There are NO legal precedents in the form of case law to support your contentions, there is no one who supports the position and I would think as a claims examiner if you paid benefits or accepted a pleading to reopen a stipulation and issue five years after the date of injury, the auditor would definitely ding you, with cause.

By asserting the position that you solely believe, you are giving hope to people that I believe is unrealistic and irresponsible as a claims professional. Not only did I disagree with you, but not one person on the forums agreed with you -- the injured workers who do not necessarily post or who may search for info need to know that you are solely advocating this position with no legal basis and no evidence, your interpretation of Herlick was discussed and the topic was already explored on the pro side with no takers...so why start it again? You think you will find takers the second time around? You won't because it is not there, refer to James Stewart's responses, the man who writes the books on case law.

I said this in the last thread as well that I spoke to judges I respected who I consider to be technical giants in the work comp arena...brillant men and women, to assure that I had not missed a point in my education. That alone was respectful, because you learn something new everyday.

There was no intent to bash, I will advocate for injured workers like they are family until the day I die or if I somehow get out of this crazy business. I would rather error on the side of caution then offer unsound legal advice --- so yes every post here is a buyer beware situation....confirm and reconfirm. I offered the pro side thread as the check and balance for people to confirm and reconfirm that I am not the only person who disagreed with your position.

I don't bother to bash people it is a waste of time -- so if you took it personally that was your choice as it is in most of the world when debates occur, but I will point out risky or unsupported legal ideas -- because I prefer that injured workers enter this arena with their eyes wide open.

My advice remains the same, if you question anything, ask to speak to the judge and then ask for it in writing and even if it is in writing, recall that either side can appeal until the Supremes answer, but it is rare that the Supremes overturn the appeals levels.



-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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postscript2
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Sunday December 21, 2008 2:59 AM

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Nice comments,, "Ginger,"

Nice, very nice... Thanks for putting words in my "mouth/e-mail;" It takes a strong person to walk a mile in some one else's "shoes/moccasins,,,,"

LCS

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Sunday December 21, 2008 4:09 PM

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again, you have ceded a position that is not in the intent of the thread....this is not personal and you take it that way, falls into the category of your personal issue.


if you advocate anything, you have to be prepared to back it up. There were no comments as to you as a person, only as to your technical position. So if you choose to take it any other way, again your choice.

I did not put words in your mouth and I have not received any emails so no words were put in any emails either. I never pretended to walk a mile in your moccasins, life experiences and learning curves are unique to each individual.

These are YOUR words, not mine..

" still hold to the fact that if a case has not Stipulated (S&A) or had a Finding and or Order of Award, there is still a one year extension for new and further. I know that the BROAD extension of "BENEFITS" also pertains to "medical treatment..." HOWEVER, this is not what I've learned or practiced over 22 years as a C/A. My interpretation is from ONE YEAR from an provision of an AWARD for P.D. Of course, I could be wrong-but after all this time, it's been the routine procedure. "

This is the position I disagree with .... so I did not make up the words....I debated the position. The rest of the words were mine....all mine and I have the broad shoulders to take responsibility for any position I advocate. I advocate strongly, passionately and zealously and the people who have met me appreciate the candor and brutal honesty, as well as a sheer understanding and deep compassion for the risks they face and the jeopardy an injury puts into someones life

The technical errors in this statement are blatant. Medical is for lifetime, you don't have to file for new and further. Compensable consequence is also limited to five years from date of injury as well as TD and PD benefits, there is NO one year extension once an award has issued as to compensable consequence or any type of TD or PD and until you read an en banc decision to the contrary, I continue to contend the position is risky as risky as it comes. IT is not the routine procedure at any insurance company to not fight a petition for new and further disability if it is five years from the date of injury.

12 years as a claims examiner with much time spent as a temp, never saw one insurance company fail to fight the issue, five years as a defense paralegal under a certified workers compensation specialist attorney, never saw us not fight one of these and never saw the defense attorneys trained otherwise, five years consulting - auditing for employers, training examiners, working for applicant and defense attorneys as a hearing representative -- -again never saw an ins. co fail this issue on an audit, never had a claim manager or ins. co auditor take the opposite position. Attend CAAA as many times as I can afford, read all appeal decisions every week, research obscure legal issues all the time and I cannot find this position? So I have walked my own path and share only my own experience, education and the results of my legal research here -- a technical debate, nothing to do with who you are as a person, again a huge misinterpretation

The reason insurance companies settle, settle, settle is that medical inflation is 200% every five years, most people who leave medical open do not just fade to black, but rather are frequent users of medical care on a regular basis. So the reason to settle goes to two claim adages -- "the only good claim is a closed claim" and "claims never get better they only get worse".....this going to the point as people age, the degeneration of the body becomes your issue as the medical care is not apportionable.

I have never advocated a position here without the ability to back it up with evidence and yes every day no matter who you are I will demand you do the same.

Take a look back at other threads, where other people told this forum that LC 4650 self-imposed increases no longer existed....I did the reasearch, advocated for the injured worker, asked around from people I felt were knowledgeable and reported my findings -- it was never repealed, it still exists and that person would have caused irrevocable harm. It was interesting there was no rebuttal to the position.

Not sure why this suddenly did not call for what every question here calls for --- an ability to support it with codes, regulations and case law -- not that it initially needs to be provided at first, becaused most people just want to be able to advocate a correct position to their attorney or I&A officer, but if it arises, that the person find the actual evidence required to support the position.

Comp is not about nice or mean, comp is not about where you are at unless you are continuing evolving. Comp is about legal entitlements as supported by codes, regulations, case law and legal theory that is sound and leads to cases of first impression - knowing when to take a case up and when it will make bad law and should not be taken up.

Case is a benefit delivery system no more no less.



-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles


Edited: Sunday December 21, 2008 at 4:34 PM by gaiassoul1@yahoo.com

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RBaird
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Sunday December 21, 2008 5:53 PM

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I think the merits of the dispute are clear and do not require comment. I would like to wish all of you the best of the season and good health. I have learned much from the posts on this forum and will continue to attempt to be of assistance. At this time of the year, I think of the late great Lord Buckley, a comic you may not have heard of. He was a white guy who rather resembled Colonel Blimp (pith hat, mustache and all) and did his routines in Chicago's South Side (ie, a predominately black audience). He opened his act by asking: "My lords and ladies, would it embarrass you if I told you I love you?" I thought I would throw that out, because I do love you all and I was recently grumpy in a post on the professional side. If I thought it would carry any weight with the selection committee, I would nominate Ginger for a MacArthur genius prize. Peace, love and good vibes to y'all...

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postscript2
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Sunday December 21, 2008 11:06 PM

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Thank you, Judge Baird!

We all, "well most of us....;" grew up with different training, interpretations, etc...

I started out as a "temp," making copies and filing documents, in 1987... I was then promoted to a Claims Assistant and within 2 years achieved my "IEA" Cert, and S/I Certification... I later became a Hearing Represenative, a "Field Rep," and have seen many, many things over my career. I don't come to "this forum," to give "legal" advise. I originally came here to seek help from other I/W's.

I've learned many things--As a matter of fact, most of the I/W's whom post here are much more knowlegable than I (including spelling)!'

Your advise, comments, etc. are TRULY, invaluable to "me." It's just difficult to lose an indentity and wake up in the PM, instead of the AM, as most of the world does. I've never meant any harm to anyone-only consolation and comfort, and to let others know that "I" know what it's like to be injured.

Thank you for breaking down the "barrier" that sometimes gets "me" in trouble.

--Well, as past posts have proven---I'm off to eat a midnight snack and a movie.

God Bless each and every one of you--AND I MEAN THAT FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!!!

LCS

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
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Monday December 22, 2008 10:37 AM

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thank you Judge Baird, that is a pretty hefty group to be in the company of......too bad work comp does not have the resources or any facility to reward the work comp individuals and injured workers who make a difference in the system.....



-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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