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Thread Title: investigators in the bushes?
Created On Wednesday May 25, 2005 12:39 PM


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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Monday December 19, 2005 12:06 AM

One of the dead give aways re calling the police on a parked car, that they are P.I.'s, is that the cops never show up. I agree that this is unsettling to others who live in the neighborhood. And... in today's age this could even be dangerous.

I still strongly believe that a law should be passed for same sex P.I.'s. And a thought for those who think this is foolish...I have one of the 7 P.I.'s involved on a witness list who is a female. Since being followed by a female did not produce a threat to me, I was unaware of her presence. So it seems to stand that same sex would even be more effective, if in fact we have to indure this invasion of our privacy.

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Monday December 19, 2005 5:41 AM

IW ... Is it in your

<< professional capacity >>

as an injured worker, because injured workers who make a profession out of being injured are the folks that puff my bank account up for renderring my investigative services which focus on any and all observed claimant activity, not just the juicy stuff. When I say juicy stuff, I absolutely mean the stuff like the claimant who claims to be 99.9% disabled but I get lucky to film them three years in a row roping cattle, birthing cows, manhandling laboring sheep and scaling six foot rodeo pen walls in a single bound. The juiciest part is that this claimant had like nine pharmacies listed as lien claimants, and I regularly filmed him/her pounding brewskies during the local fair - three years in a row!

If a PI films or zooms in on someone bending over, chances are it is to focus on the persons ability to move about so as to be consistant, or not, with the claimed injuries. Trust in this, I've yet to come across a situation where while on surveillance I let the voyer in me come out to play! Christ, I'm out trying to make an honest living...It's time you did, too! Get back to living! Do something that is within your physical comfort zone! Accomodate your injuries! I can not do surveillance like before when I'd jump to do a six or seven day workweek at ten to twenty hours per day. My arms, wrists, elbows, legs, feet, ankles and rear end got hurtr doing that gruelling amount of work. So now I work for me, and I limit myself to do that which I can without seriously agrovating my PD's. If I do overdo it, I take my lumps, rest, medicate, cry a little and get over it.

Work comp is not a way of life. It is a temporary means to get oneself by when an on the job injury causes loss of income. It is an institution that is abused and used by all players in the sandbox so stop presenting yourself as an authority on the subject because it's misleading and damageing to those who happen by this great resource, WCC, in search of a little information. And I probably did mis-spell a few words so don't sweat correcting me; it's an undodly hour and I'm up with upper extremity pain due to waging battle with my 11 year old son on his foosball table last night for too, too long. Some things are priceless...even if it hurts my arms.

Seriously, I do hope you find closure and peace of mind. You do have the tenacity that I'm sure when directed toward a fruitfull cause will land you in a much better place. Work comp isn't intended to be fruitfull. It's just a temporary thing to get you by while you do what you need to do to take care of your business. Good luck and I hope everyone has a pleasant holiday.

Thanks to everyone for the insight and thanks to David D. and WCC for such a diverse, informational resource to visit online. I've really learned a lot here.

Peace!

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Monday December 19, 2005 9:25 AM

I stand on my holdings that folks should be followed by same sex only P.I.'s.

This is a real women's issue that has been overlooked. Having been in the trenches of victims of crimes perpertrated by males against women, women should be afforded this courtsey. We are still in the dark ages re the security of women.

And...hey it would open up more jobs for women in that case since most P.I.s are retired male police officers.

No one should be made to feel threat in their daily lives.

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STEVEPSCA@YAHOO.COM
Senior Member

Posts: 990
Joined: Jun 2002

Monday December 19, 2005 11:08 AM

In general most IW's never even know they are being filmed.
Those jobs of PI are open to everyone, men and women alike, as most investigators are self employed. It just that women don't want that kind of job or they would do something about it.
As with any type of employement you're going to have the good and the bad...but I think it's going a little too far with the paranoia to insist that you have a female investigator, that would require at times that the IC notify you that you are being observed!

There are now 83 posts on this topic, can we just move on...we're beating a dead horse here.

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reynacho
Senior Member

Posts: 277
Joined: Mar 2004

Monday December 19, 2005 12:21 PM

beating a dead horse gives you...well...a deader more mangled horse, which is pretty much what this thread has become.

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Tuesday December 20, 2005 10:25 AM

InjuredWorker ... You said,

<< Since being followed by a female did not produce a threat to me, I was unaware of her presence. So it seems to stand that same sex would even be more effective, >>

That does not surprise me in the least bit because, in MY humble opinion, us lady investigator's are almost always able to get the job done without being burned because we ARE women. I think most people would look twice at some guy sitting in a car out on a residential street for any length of time because the stereotypical pervert or sexual predator is almost always a man. Plus, women typically just do not pose a threat to the same degree as men do because statistics tell us that the profile is usually that of a man. Sorry guys.

But, to change laws the way you have suggested would be, in a huge way, discrimination based on gender, and it would likely diminish employment opportunities in the investigative field for men since a gigantic demand would be created for female investigator's in an industry where there are not a lot of women to begin with. I think the ratio of men to women PI's is very significant; but those of us gals who do tread the fast-paced career path of an investigator are typically pretty darned good at what we do, partially because of our gender! I've honestly never heard a fellow PI say anything perverse about an assignment. Although, I'm sure there are some who lack the tact and professionalism to do the job right and be done with it, like in any profession. There's good plumbers and perverted ones, too.

As far as the licensing agency for PI's here in California, go check out the web site for the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services. All the discipline stuff can be searched there.

Integrity is everything. In my opinion, the successful and good PI will never formulate his or her own opinion on any assignment, and especially won't report anything they might have speculated either. just report the activity being filmed for each start and stop point on the tape using descriptive words to tell the reader what the tape shows so the reader can go directly to any particular point in the film to view whatever they want to view for themselves. PI's don't determine compensability of anyone's claim; Adjusters do thatr. They just sometimes like to do their job in a thorough fashion to make every effort to handle each claim based on its own merits. Since Adjuster's cannot possibly see for themselves out in the field, they hire PI's to merely gather evidence which is why video is valuable to them. Denying a compensable claim based on assumptions is no better than paying out on a BS claim. Both cost a lot of dough in the end. Selective viewing is better coined as video obtained at the earliest point that the PI noticed it and pressed the record button. It really sucks to be unable to explain how the claimants car had been in the driveway all morning but suddenly its gone and the PI didn't see who drove off in it or when. Of course, that'sa never happened to me!

PI's are sometimes called to testify, under penalty of perjery, that the video is accurate, and free from any alteration. I take that very seriously, so my guiding rule does not allow me to formulate opinions that I write in my reports, nor does it allow me to do anything that might violate the laws of perjery. Not worth it. I take great pride in doing my work by the book because in business, reputation is everything.

Melanie

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Tuesday December 20, 2005 1:36 PM

Thank You for your post melaine.

There are two schools of thought here re male vs female P.I.s:

One you state, it is discrimination to employment.

I offer the reason that it is one's peace of mind and precieved threat to self and community. And, it is wrong to practice in this way.

So let's look at those:

Yes both sexes should have ability to work in whatever capacity of which they want and are qualified. I agree on that. However, there are already professions and areas of sensitivity of which lines have been drawn.

R.N. nursing is one of them. You will never find a R.N. or any other nurse working in a hospital O.B. unit other than a female. Why is this? It is because it is in a sensitive area. The nurse has a tremendous amount of contact with the patients and in fact does more work then the doctor who comes in at the last minute to deliver the baby. When the doctor is there delivering the baby, there are many others present to observe and assist. But no school of nursing even sends the male nurses into the OB ward for their rotations.

I believe in the prisons the male and female guards are limited in what they can appropiately do. Females pat down females, males males etc. This is even apparent in our airport/court security.

I would bet you that if this were made into a bill at the legislature level, it would easily pass and become law. There is no way, that given the sensitivity of women, nowdays that she should be subjected to any feeling of threat, by being followed, or in my opinion, "stalked". We are still in the dark ages on some of the real women's issues out there; because being followed, or having a car sit outside, represents threat, and to me and others whom I have spoke, the feeling is very much as if being stalked by a male.

The fact that a female was assigned to me and will testify in my case does not upset me in anyway. I know you are sensitive about this opinion since you are in the profession it does not bother you as much. But for others it does bother more. In my case having some experience working with victims of sexual assult you can bet that it will bother me even more. I have heard plenty of stories of real sexual assult. It doesn't have to be by a P.I. It was by the same types of circumstance. For those aware of those situations in today's age, it makes for a real uncomfortable situation.

The rest of this stuff is all subject to interpertation of the films. That is my complaint. I have not seen what the P.I.s have written. I so far do not have a problem with that. It is in what their doctor writes in his reports that troubles me. For instance: I am outside talking to the neighbor by the fence and point to something. This is "clear proof that I have no shoulder injury' according to their doctors interpertation. It goes on and on but you get my drift.

I am not here to argue any points or to make enemies here but to share viewpoints and concerns. You are an IW just like me and others who post here and are welcome to your thoughts and feelings. But if I ever get the chance to argue that P.I.s should only have same sex subjects, you can bet on the fact that I will attempt to get this issue passed.

I stand on my position: Only same sex P.I.s should be assigned to cases. If it limits the work for the males, there is plenty of work, outside following females, just as in nursing or other occupations.

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STEVEPSCA@YAHOO.COM
Senior Member

Posts: 990
Joined: Jun 2002

Wednesday December 21, 2005 4:48 PM

IW101, I just found this posting on another site if you'd care to make the trip...

"Join us on January 4, 2006 at 5:30 pm to hear a former PI talk about subrosa investigations.

See you at (SBPEA)433 N. Sierra Way, San Bernardino. "

answersandactions@answersandactions.com

Might be a good place for you to hear the other side in person and voice your take on the situation...there may be others who would agree with you at this meeting and be interested in joing your cause.
To tell the truth I don't think most IW's actually think about this issue, most don't even know that they have been filmed.

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scrapindee
Member

Posts: 167
Joined: Jan 2004

Thursday December 22, 2005 7:10 AM

Thanks for the plug. We've had some really good speakers on some pertinent topics for the injured workers/

Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2005

Sunday January 15, 2006 12:08 PM

Ahhh....yes Ginger...you and Sophia are 2 peas from the same pod. Well I find it disgusting to embellish in such a thing as an IW's opinion of unfair IC practices. While you pat each other on the back for being equally "holier than thou art", you should at least realize or admitt that in this crazy money hungry society where such an animal as a corrupt Workers Comp system exists, both sides of the coin are just as much to blame for as yet, unsolved problems. So please stop ganging up on this person. Sounds like he is going through enough problems (4 back surgeries, 1 rib taken out....egads!!)

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gaiassoul1@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 2155
Joined: Feb 2004

Monday January 16, 2006 12:29 PM

Ahh Willy, if you paid any attention, the person you accused me of beating,

you may wish to note I appeared on behalf of that person, (For free) which included taking a day off or making it up in comp time on a weekend which my employer gracefully allows me to do, driving to San Diego (gas at $2.50 a gal at its cheapest), meals on the road and prevailing in the case.....so before you make such baseless accusations, as always, maybe you want to get a bigger picture.

Since there are about 4 posters here who I have appeared at the WCAB for free on, they may speak to my true intentions and what I do when the chips are down and how I know what is important and what is not and how it is usually going to play out.

It amazes me how much judgement goes on here with a very minimal basis.

-------------------------
Ginger

To know how to say what others only know how to think is what makes men poets or sages; and to dare to say what others only dare to think makes men martyrs or
reformers - or both. Elizabeth Charles

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Monday January 16, 2006 5:36 PM

Gingers' attended court with me as well. Picked me up at home at 0700 and bought me lunch to boot. Additionally, she's driven me to a doc appointment in another county before she went to her job. Both instances affected her time/attendence at her job, cost her money (gas/lunch) and burned up her private time as well.

To imply she is simply a defense hack is either naive or woefully dismissive of the time, effort and insight she brings to this forum.

You may not always agree with her but she's honest and calls 'em as she see's em. There are few things in this world I wouldn't trust her with and I can't think of any of them at the moment, I simply don't like absolutes.

Later...
--------------

To think contrary to one's era is heroism. But to speak against it is madness. -- Eugene Ionesco

Edited: Wednesday January 18, 2006 at 2:33 AM by art

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Tuesday January 17, 2006 4:31 PM

Yep she prevailed in my case for the voc rehab. Ginger also told me not to worry about the sub rosa tapes. She was right, they got thrown out in court. So all the worrying was not to worry as she said. It is just the hard life of living as an IW that takes the cake. And...I believe Ginger knows that one too in that she too was injured. She has always been fair and honest with me and told me like it was. It is me that likes to hold onto things and worry. The tapes are now gone... Doesn't mean it can't happen again...but now I am not afraid of them anymore.

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Wednesday January 18, 2006 2:32 AM

"It is me that likes to hold onto things and worry"-- Once you freely recognize and admit that you can lighten your load by stepping out from under your own self-imposed burden.

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Thursday April 20, 2006 3:09 AM

Ola!,

Sorry to raise this old and tired issue again, but I accidently ran across something on-line that shows the context in which sub-rosa is included/raised in a disability case. While this link:

http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/CACD/RecentPubOp.nsf/0/04f3dd04c9fb030d88256b48007a04a7?OpenDocument

doesn't relate specifically to a WC case, it is addressing disability issues in a SoCal court and is therefore at least periphially informative. Paragraphs 39 & 40 mention the sub-rosa and it's interesting to see how the IC used it. Now, don't draw any broad-based conclusions that this case is directly applicable to WC because it isn't. But what it does is offer some general parrallels as well as a court-defined synopsis of a disability case.

I think any IW who reads this example might benefit from seeing how clearly and concisely the court condensed and framed the issues.

Is anyone aware of similar condensations of actual WC cases? They'd be even more useful and informative.

Later...
-------------

Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space.--Unknown

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mattdave@pacbell.net
Member

Posts: 66
Joined: Jun 2002

Friday June 30, 2006 1:35 AM

Just to answer part of the first question my case is over 9 years old and 6 months ago was the most recent run in with a PI. I cant say they were employed by the IC I know of no one else that would hire a PI to try and follow me. Within two miniustes of encountering her she was brandishing very carfull not to assult me with a 25 cal automitic. I can say she was for sure following me because I spent plenty of time in class and practice on such things as spotting a tail and she was a by the book amature who blew it from the get go. I laughed at her went and called the police could have killed the lady in my sleep but I have mellowed. I have had a ton of PI try to film threaten me and scare my wife and children. The first lady was great I would tell her wich doctor I was going to see what route I would take she never filmed the kids or through the windows did not play spy games. After her they all led to explosive violent confrontations within moments of there presents near my land. Because of some nesserary security considerations that went into the purchase of our house it is bot possibale to observe it with out sitting directly in the front of it you cant park down the street or stand and see the house with out it being clerly visibale that you are survaling it The hole thing could have been handled a lot better by both sides and might have been if my employer did not hire there own so called PI which left me treating all PI as putting my family in harms way. But as to when there done never not after your case settels never this is a case where controlled overwhelming violance is effective after they have to send three at a time to be safe and they find wrong 3 is not enough the PI comunity gets the message dont work for them I went 7 years with out deaking with them after shooing 3 of them from my land
Dave S

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shanemgunn1973
Junior Member

Posts: 3
Joined: Aug 2006

Tuesday October 03, 2006 1:28 PM

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