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Thread Title: investigators in the bushes?
Created On Wednesday May 25, 2005 12:39 PM


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citysicker
Junior Member

Posts: 15
Joined: May 2005

Wednesday May 25, 2005 12:39 PM

every time i wince in pain while walking my dog or what have you, i wonder if THEY got THAT on tape. is it likely that there are still investigators on the case? i know i got filmed once onstage with this music project i was with, is that it? is it true that the IC only sends the hounds out for you once? my case is pretty much wrapped up with inly the MSC remaining, should i put all that spy vs. spy crap out of my head?

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Wednesday May 25, 2005 1:44 PM

"I wonder if THEY got THAT on tape."-- If they had anything favorable to your case you can bet you'll never see it.
"is it likely that there are still investigators on the case?"-- Who knows for sure, but you remain fair game.
"is it true that the IC only sends the hounds out for you once?"-- Nope, they'll continue to "Dog" you as long as they think it may help them develop evidence against you.
"my case is pretty much wrapped up with inly the MSC remaining, should i put all that spy vs. spy crap out of my head?"-- It ain't over 'till it's over!

In fact, even after you settle, if they film you doing something you emphatically claimed you could no longer do that was material to the disability awarded within 5-years after the settlement is signed, they can petition to re-open your case and reduce the award.

IW101 will be around shortly to comment on PI's. She's the resident expert.

Later...

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tjfujii@scif.com
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Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 2002

Wednesday May 25, 2005 2:26 PM

Investigations of this kind cost a lot of money and don't often produce results that are helpful to the defense so they are done much less often than you would think. And in 25 years I have never seen a petition for an award to be reduced, much less one that was granted. IC has too much on their plate to go after people they've already settled with unless the situation is really egregious.

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Wednesday May 25, 2005 3:23 PM

And yet it was either Ginger or loislane (#1 & #3 posters here respectively) who said that if you're off work and collecting TTD more than three months you should assume you are (or will be) videotaped. Not that it happens in 100% of the cases but that it does often enough that you need to be aware of the possibly.

IW101 (the #2 poster) has personally been the object of ongoing PI scrutiny and her's is a legitimate and well-documented case.

There was a recent posting on the Pro side that noted WC cases represented 40% of the volume of PI work.

Caveat Emptor

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Friday May 27, 2005 4:31 AM

<< every time i wince in pain while walking my dog or what have you, i wonder if THEY got THAT on tape. >>

... If THEY were there, they probably DID get it, but people are allowed to wince in pain and walk dogs unless those activities are restricted medically. It's the malingerers that cause insurance premiums to be so expensive to the rest of us. If you are not doing anything wrong, stop sweating it. It's that simple!

<< is it likely that there are still investigators on the case? >>

... Well, if you are committing fraud then chances are good someone has nailed you in the act. If you are not committing fraud then you should have no worries.

<< i know i got filmed once onstage with this music project i was with, is that it? >>

... Now how are any of us suppose to know if that's it? Were you on stage doing things that you tell the Dr.'s you cannot do? I'd say that if you were not exceeding your restrictions, look at it as starring in your very own cameo appearance!

<< is it true that the IC only sends the hounds out for you once? >>

... Wherever did you hear that one? What a waste of money that would be. I am compelled to ask why you have such animosity toward the PI's who are out there doing nothing more than lawfully gathering evidence that will either show that you are or are not milking it? Any PI who runs around from bush to bush trying to tape you is probably violating your right to privacy, as well as trespassing. If that's the case then the film is probably not useable in court. Fruit from the Poisonous Tree...is also poisonous.

<< my case is pretty much wrapped up ... only the MSC remaining >>

... ONLY the MSC??? Discovery is still open.

<< should i put all that spy vs. spy crap out of my head? >>

... Yes. What exactly is "spy vs. spy crap"? And how/why did it get in your head to begin with? In my opinion, the average, reasonable person who is not doing anything wrong just doesn't even think about these things.

I am a PI. I had to put in a lot of hours (6,000 of them to be exact) just to take the PI exam, which came after extensive background checks on me by the FBI & DOJ. I've worked surveillance cases for WC and Disability claims, I've located and recovered thousands of dollars that my clients never knew they had, recently, I worked with a Detective in New Mexico (on my own dime, with no financial gain) who was heading a national/and Mexico search for the safe return of a 16 or 18 month old little boy whose step-dad had killed the child's mother, who was his wife, and taken off with the child. I'll never know if my efforts helped in the safe recovery of the child, but he did return home safely, which is all that matters. PI's do a whole lot more than run around chasing claimant's and cheating spouses.

Good luck and stop worrying about it, unless you have any reason to worry.

Melanie
CA PI 24261

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Friday May 27, 2005 8:39 AM

Sorry...I haven't been keeping up on the reading. This is an interesting string.

Sopha...I am glad that you are legitimate and honest. Not all the folks in PI work are. Remember its your word againist theirs and how do you really tell who's right?

Example...The five dollar bill left directly in my walking path with the P.I. hiding behind the bamboo fence. So given that I did not see him put the currency there...but I seen him behind the fence...who is telling the truth? I came around the corner, and there it was, for my convience, placed exactually streight with the president's picture side up. Odds are that if it fell out of somone's wallet/purse it would not be sitting perfect. Also, at that time in the morning, it would have been wet with dew. I assume that since he is conveintly behind the fence at that given moment, and five dollar bills seldom appear in the road...that he put it there, since he is standing there... But who would want to fight that senerio in court? And... he knows this.

The P.I. firms are employed by the employer to get what they want, and make their employer happy. In the film, should I have picked it up...would there be evidence that he sat it there? Probably the camera would have not even been able to pick up the fine detail of what it was I even picked up; should I have picked it up. So it is worth it to the "dishonest" one to do this to obtain what the employer wants. So not all P.I.'s are honest.

Hey...I got DVD's of myself to view. They are of poor quality. But you should see what the defense doctor does with them in his review! Talk about exageration! The way he put it, you would think the District Attorney would be knocking on my door and I would be in jail. (since I ran my fingers through my hair, I must not have a shoulder or hand injury..."I can't see what she's doing but she's using her hands." And the greatest of all..."Adjusting herself." Like I am a man...

So...yea at first it was shocking. But then as time went on...it became sort of fun and funny. Some of these guys are good and some of these guys are outright stupid and dishonest. (including defense doctors)

Now I don't care anymore. It took awhile to get there. But...now I always carry my own digital camera in my purse to catch anything going on dishonest. There are always two sides to the story and I am prepared. These little digital cameras fit real easy in one's purse similar to a pack of cigerettes. So...yes my camera is with me at all times and ready to go.

And...as the voc rehab counselor can tell you...and perhaps future others down the line...I intend to hold people responsible who state they are "professionals." There is some real nice ladies in the law liabary (sp) which have been very helpful to me in my endevors. I sort have become as Lois Lane in the law libary so to speak. There is a wealth of information there and its free for the asking.

Edited: Friday May 27, 2005 at 8:58 AM by injuredworker101@yahoo.com

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Saturday May 28, 2005 7:41 AM

<< Sopha...I am glad that you are legitimate and honest. Not all the folks in PI work are. Remember its your word againist theirs and how do you really tell who's right? >>

...

Example...The five dollar bill left directly in my walking path with the P.I. hiding behind the bamboo fence. So given that I did not see him put the currency there...but I seen him behind the fence...who is telling the truth? I came around the corner, and there it was, for my convience, placed exactually streight with the president's picture side up. Odds are that if it fell out of somone's wallet/purse it would not be sitting perfect. Also, at that time in the morning, it would have been wet with dew. I assume that since he is conveintly behind the fence at that given moment, and five dollar bills seldom appear in the road...that he put it there, since he is standing there... But who would want to fight that senerio in court? And... he knows this.

The P.I. firms are employed by the employer to get what they want, and make their employer happy. In the film, should I have picked it up...would there be evidence that he sat it there? Probably the camera would have not even been able to pick up the fine detail of what it was I even picked up; should I have picked it up. So it is worth it to the "dishonest" one to do this to obtain what the employer wants. So not all P.I.'s are honest.

Hey...I got DVD's of myself to view. They are of poor quality. But you should see what the defense doctor does with them in his review! Talk about exageration! The way he put it, you would think the District Attorney would be knocking on my door and I would be in jail. (since I ran my fingers through my hair, I must not have a shoulder or hand injury..."I can't see what she's doing but she's using her hands." And the greatest of all..."Adjusting herself." Like I am a man...

So...yea at first it was shocking. But then as time went on...it became sort of fun and funny. Some of these guys are good and some of these guys are outright stupid and dishonest. (including defense doctors)

Now I don't care anymore. It took awhile to get there. But...now I always carry my own digital camera in my purse to catch anything going on dishonest. There are always two sides to the story and I am prepared. These little digital cameras fit real easy in one's purse similar to a pack of cigerettes. So...yes my camera is with me at all times and ready to go.

And...as the voc rehab counselor can tell you...and perhaps future others down the line...I intend to hold people responsible who state they are "professionals." There is some real nice ladies in the law liabary (sp) which have been very helpful to me in my endevors. I sort have become as Lois Lane in the law libary so to speak. There is a wealth of information there and its free for the asking. >>

IW101, As a PI, I don't agree with you about the "...it's your word against theirs" scenario. Why you ask? Because as a PI, my opinions and "word" isn't suppose to be relevant. Film speaks for itself. I don't think there are too many of us out there who are willing to perjure ourselves to nail some claimant that we have to induce activity out of in order to get film. Personally, I find it unethical and corrupt if I have to create the siyuation that causes the claimant to move in any fashion that had it not been but for my interfearance in his/her activity the movement may not have happened. Does that make sense to you? My job/goal is not to nail the claimant, but rather it is to go out there and document the activities of the claimant, lawfully and without induceing him to act in any way, because the Claims' Examiner's can't just step out themselves and see what every questionable claimant is up to. You probably have a hard time getting the CE on the phone as it is, right? I know I did. And as far as the $5.00 bill ... Did that really happen or did you watch an old Sherlock Holmes movie because I don't think that's very realistic. Hell, I'd pick up the $$$ even if I had no arms or legs to work with, but I'd figure it out somehow! So, did you pick it up or what? Oh, and there's good & bad in every aspect of every profession. Just go about your daily business and don't worry about who's lookin'! That's smart of you to have your camera handy; use it if it makes you feel better. Good luck to you, IW101.
Melanie

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Saturday May 28, 2005 4:52 PM

Thanks...Sopha

My neighbor was walking with me and witnessed it. He of course helped himself to the five dollar bill. Since I saw the money first, I thought when he picked it up he would give it to me. None the luck...he kept it for himself. He recently went to the store to help me like he usually does, and he took my candy bar coupon and used it for himself too....wa wa!! Now I never will know how the Butterfinger Crisp bar tasted. Oh the fun of having a helper! Such things this disability does. But he is good at pulling weeds. So I will pay him with my candy bar coupon. Am I not smart? He also took over and stole my dogs. Now they like him better than me. Such things disability does...

As to the films...they have nothing on me. But yes, I intend to hold everybody accountable; and so the digital camera is packed in my purse with a fairly large chip ready and handy for anything which may come up.

In my case the insurance co has spent a ton of money trying to make me go away. I will go away when they give me my medical treatment. In the meantime...its their dime; and my DVD.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Saturday May 28, 2005 5:02 PM

Oh by the way...when the defense attorney opened up his file in front of me...I saw all kinds of narrative reports from the P.I. firm. I imagine just, we sat and waited stuff, since I have not seen any of the naratives through my attorney was presented with the films.

If they try and background check me, it is almost impossible since the military went through my files and now others can't. This has added a dilema of another kind which I have found to be a bit of a hassle for other types of situations. However, the military security clearance is still there.

So do you know what these P.I. narratives contain?

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tjfujii@scif.com
Member

Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 2002

Monday May 30, 2005 6:56 AM

Investigation reports contain pages and pages of....

Subject exited the house and walked to the mailbox. Got the mail. Walked back to the house. Subject did not appear the rest of the day and surveillance was discontinued after six hours. Next day: Subject left the house with small child. Subject walked the child across the street to the school. Subject crossed the street, stopped to speak to a neighbor for three minutes. Subject went in the house and did not appear again all day. Surveillance discontinued....

And on and on and on.....

Seriously, we rarely get anything useful from these kinds of sub rosa investigations and don't bother to spend the money they cost unless we have real suspicions that an IW is gaming the system in some way. As long as you aren't doing anything you aren't supposed to be doing you don't have reason to worry about them. The primary purpose of such investigations is to discover if someone is working when on temporary disability or performing activities that they have sworn they cannot do. If you tell the doctor you are practically bedridden with pain and can only walk with braces and crutches and canes, and something seems fishy about it, the investigator might be asked to do a little look see to find out if you're doing anything differently than you say you are. If you're hobbling to the mailbox or talking to a neighbor, that's not really that unrealistic. If you're water skiing over the weekend or personally building a new wing on the house, that might be another story.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Monday May 30, 2005 9:07 AM

Thank you that is the information I was looking for.

I figure they figure I am gaming the system. I am not; I am holding out for the best of medical treatment. So whatever it takes I am prepared to do. Today, I wonder how much longer it will take? Perhaps another year? This just seems to go on and on...and the requests that I send the insurance co are always ignored. This has made for a very bad relationship. I wish I could have my old original adjuster back. This seems like such a game with land mines in the road. People you think are on your side may not be. This I have found out. Maybe more like a poker game...only I am the pot.

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Wednesday June 01, 2005 12:25 AM

<< So do you know what these P.I. narratives contain? >>

tjfijii@scif.com tells an accurate account of what, in my experience, a high number of PI reports end up containing ... a whole lot of "9:49 AM: The CLAIMANT was observed as he exited the front door of the residence. He was wearing a blue, short-sleeved, button up shirt with khaki shorts and tennis shoes; he was carrying an envelope in his right hand. The video shows the CLAIMANT while he walked toward the curbside mailbox, retrieved mail from it, then placed the envelope he was carrying inside before returning to the residence where he disappeared from view. Surveillance efforts continued.

10:50 AM: The video shows the CLAIMANT'S residence only. The Investigator continued to monitor the residence."

That's pretty much how it goes!

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Wednesday June 01, 2005 8:49 AM

Thank You

And...I might add, "and lots of money spent."

I sort of feel sorry for the investigator, the films were done in January while it was dark outside and you should see the rain coming down in the film! He must have been in a miserable situation while I was inside nice and warm out of the weather.

What jobs are!

Posts: 75
Joined: Aug 2004

Sunday June 05, 2005 10:25 AM

I've had investigators watching me that I've seen on 2 occasions. My questiion is a relatively simple one. If so many sub-rosa investigations come up empty, why do the Insurance Companies cotinue to use them? I assume they are very costly, why incur such a cost with if most of the reports come back empty?

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art
Senior Member

Posts: 2111
Joined: Aug 2004

Sunday June 05, 2005 11:42 AM

Force of habit perhaps? Grasping at straws? A form of deterence against marginal cases? A cynic might say it's also a form of discreet intimidation by creating "FUD" (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.) in some IW's minds.

On a more practical, economic level however, shutting down one fraudulent case can easily save an insurer $100,000 in TTD payments, Dr.'s bills, diagnostics and legal expenses, not to mention their actual in-house administrative costs. How many sub-rosa investigations will that $100,000 then be able to fund? Since without that one successful investagation they would have been out the $100K anyway, why not gamble it on funding another 20 investigations at $5K each in the hope they'll turn up just one more case where they might save another $100K. At this point it's basically a self-funding program that has become a standard operating procedure.

The above numbers are just hypothetical ones I pulled outta' my..., oops, I meant thin air. But they illustrate the point that the actual net cost to the IC's might not be as high as it appears on the surface. Plus they can then claim that fraud is such a problem that they have to spend $xxx per year investigating it.

In a world filled with hyperbole, this claim is what sticks in peoples minds and not the fact that the vast majority of the investigations are fruitless. The latter is a fact convieniently omitted in the press releases and speeches and sound-bites offered for public consumption. Thus they control what the media reports and thereby create false perceptions and as they say, "Perception is reality!". Arnie's election proved how effective that technique is!

As a former WC claimant himself you'd think he'd be more sympathetic.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Sunday June 05, 2005 12:04 PM

If your injuries are significant, or you're in the system too long, irregardless to their delay, you can count on one thing: YOU WILL BE FILMED

Given that...I don't feel sorry for them spending all this money of which they cry. In my case they would be much better spending the money on the care I need. It is only a write off of justification to their investors.

While it is the "norm" to pay a defense QME $500.00. My attorney told me in my case this was not the fact. They supbeoned all my medical records from 1976 until present trying to find a way to get out of this liablity. They tried to say diabettes. I've never had such. They tried to say I had it before...not. They tried to say weight...I still have it and I am tiny.

So...the bottom line according to my attorney, they paid the defense QME $5,000 to write me off. Now that is something of a try to get out of something. The defense QME is quite pleased and will write them whatever they wish. He charged them to review all the records, 29 years worth. So now they say my file is volumus. Of course it is.

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republic1
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Joined: Jul 2005

Saturday July 23, 2005 8:19 AM

As for Sub Rosa Filming- If the investigator uses a zoom lens to take photos and actually uses the zoom lens then you have a civil cause of action for tresspassing, according to the case law I have read. Yes and as far as QME examinations go - let them know you will tape the exaimination - recent law says the issue is up to a WCJ - I would have your attorneys argue. One person tapped her 5 minute appearance and never did an exaimination - it is on tape- what was done was a nice report and billing for 4 hours to "exaimine" the person. Seems like this doctor will have to testilie at trial-also there is no way anyone can stop you from taking notes and presenting that at trial and or refering to the audit bureau or DA - if the DA does not desire to go after employers and defense doctors who outright commit fraud there is always a writ of mandamius one can do and hold a newsconference to force the DA to do its job. Like our founding fathers, I do not rear the enemies of our country - I fear mostly from our government who can take away your rights with the strok of a pen.

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SophaKingWhat
Member

Posts: 35
Joined: May 2004

Sunday July 24, 2005 2:55 AM

Republic1 ~ I'm curious about the case law that you made reference to when you said,

<< As for Sub Rosa Filming- If the investigator uses a zoom lens to take photos and actually uses the zoom lens then you have a civil cause of action for tresspassing, according to the case law I have read. >>

Where did you learn this and could you send me in the direction of where I, too, might find this? As an investigator, I've relied faithfully on my SONY digital video cameras 700x zoom feature. It has allowed me to remain at a considerable distance from my subject while maintaining the clarity and quality of my work. I was taught that the difference between

<< good >>

video and

<< bad >>

video is determined by how the video was obtained. Reliable video evidence would be obtained lawfully. It would depict images clearly (no shaking, bobbling or background sounds included) and without investigator interferance in the activities of the subject. Having an investigator can benefit either party at the expense of the IC. Someone milking the system deserves to be

<< caught >>

on tape. Those that are not milking it are seen on tape, not milking it.

But I just disagree with the whole using a zoom lense = civil liability bit. So, please, educate me on the case law that says I must not use my zoom feature. Now, if I were using my zoom feature to zoom in and tape/observe people who have an expectation of privacy because they're inside their home, inside a fitting room, inside a public restroom or inside their lawyer's office or wherever there's an expectation of privacy, well then to try taping in any of those places would likely be ripe for civil liability on my part. But, to zoom in on a subject who has been claiming to be near death and receiving SDI for years, while working as a clown for the travelling circus or wherever else a fraudulant claimant may choose to work, well I don't think there's any reason why a zoom lense is inappropriate. The key is whether or not the video was obtained in a manner that violates an individual's expectation of privacy. Period.

Melanie

-------------------------
Pessimism . . . An overwhelmingly powerful side affect.

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injuredworker101@yahoo.com
Senior Member

Posts: 1527
Joined: Apr 2004

Sunday July 24, 2005 8:22 AM

I have "no trespassing" signs on my door. They were filmed right in the vidio. So there must not be any difference re the tresspassing.

I have no problem with the films, though it is an invasion of privacy. After time, actually it becomes fun with the P.I. However, it becomes a real issue with what the washout defense doctor does in his interpertation of these films.

See these films are done by the P.I. They then should stand alone on their creditability. But what happens then is the case is slowed down since now the films have to be reviewed by everybody's doctor and interpertited. The P.I. does not interpertit any of it. He just sends it in. This of course leads to even more delay since these QMEs are booked so solid and have little time to just sit there and watch hours of tape.

What a dis service this is. It has slowed down my case significiantly. And...I do expect more. But once you catch on to this system and how they do this stuff it too becomes old hand. Little upsets me anymore.

Edited: Sunday July 24, 2005 at 8:24 AM by injuredworker101@yahoo.com

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screwedagain
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Joined: Oct 2005

Tuesday October 25, 2005 8:20 PM

im a newbie, but i have seen this forum before. I must say that I am surprised at some of these posts. I have been an injured worker numerous times. I work for a self insured employer and I have had the same adjuster for the past 5 years on all my cases.

I have never wondered if surveillance is assigned on my injuries because quite frankly I know i have legitimate injuries. I just want the benefits that I am entitled to, to assist me in getting back to work. I have heard other co-workers say that they have had surveillance placed on them before and they have been confronted about it by the doctors or adjuster and honestly I would have placed surveillance on them myself if i was in the insurance companies shoes.

Insurance companies are entitled to do as they please, its their money. I would not be surprised if the reason that surveillance is placed on people is if we as injured workers piss off the adjuster.

One of the great lessons of life. People treat you back in the same way you treat them. If you treat them politely they will treat you politely. On the other hand if you treat them in an impolite, disrespectful or unfriendly way they will treat you back in the same way. You almost always get back in the same coin that you give. They pick up your attitude and reflect it back to you. They aren't asking us for anything, it is us that are depending on them to provide benefits.

-------------------------
Don't always be on the defense, you would be surprised how much can be accomplished.

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