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Thread Title: Thomas Curtis, MD
Created On Friday June 03, 2005 1:21 PM

woolseylaw
Junior Member

Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 2005

Friday June 03, 2005 1:21 PM

There is a rumor that the psychiatrist, Thomas Curtis, MD was arrested today and charged with Workers' Compensation fraud. Does anyone know if there is truth to this?

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majones
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Posts: 211
Joined: Mar 2005

Friday June 03, 2005 3:59 PM

If it's true, let's blessed the people responsible!!

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bhinden
Senior Member

Posts: 230
Joined: Aug 2003

Monday June 06, 2005 9:38 AM

Before you defense-oriented folks gleefully "dogpile" on this rumor, according to the news story on this site posted this morning all that has happened so far is that the LA DA's office served a warrant (almost certainly a search warrant, not an arrest warrant) at Dr. Curtis' office.

More importantly, much as one may disagree with Dr. Curtis' diagnoses, treatment practices, disability recommendations, etc., actual WC fraud is not so easily proven. Unless there is proof of fraudulent billing practices, I doubt that the apparent investigation will lead to anything significant. If fraud could be proven just because Dr. Curtis routinely diagnoses and treats psyche conditions caused by work-related injuries, then defense "wash out" doctors like a certain infamous psychiatrist in Beverly Hills or another one who runs a group of psychiatrists in Torrance would be equally susceptible to prosecution for never finding any psyche injury in any WC case, no matter what happened.

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

Edited: Monday June 06, 2005 at 9:39 AM by bhinden

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bheath55
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Posts: 3
Joined: May 2005

Monday June 06, 2005 10:28 AM

Geez slow down a bit. At this point we have no idea what this is all about and an ad hominum attack on defense doctors seems at best overkill. Let's wait and see if this goes anywhere before nominating Dr. Curtis for sainthood.

Edited: Monday June 06, 2005 at 10:30 AM by bheath55

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bhinden
Senior Member

Posts: 230
Joined: Aug 2003

Monday June 06, 2005 2:47 PM

I didn't nominate anyone for sainthood, but the person who posted before me on this thread sure did: those responsible for the Curtis investigation. My point is that there are no saints in WC.

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

Edited: Monday June 06, 2005 at 2:48 PM by bhinden

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slyaian@charter.net
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Posts: 24
Joined: Apr 2004

Tuesday June 07, 2005 10:26 AM

Thanks, you hit the nail on the head. There are no Saints in W/C. I have seen a lot of unethical practices, before becoming an I/W, and while I was a Reg. Nurse. Dr. C. must have been an applicant's doctor.

Posts: 22
Joined: Mar 2005

Wednesday June 08, 2005 8:05 AM

I felt compelled to respond to this thread. The LA DA would not have taken this case unless they thought they had enough evidence to move forward. I am all to familiar with another agency submitting a case to the LA DA, a case that should have been prosecuted and they rejected it, so their bar is much higher that most I would suspect.

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tjfujii@scif.com
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Posts: 125
Joined: Dec 2002

Wednesday June 08, 2005 9:40 AM

Edited: Friday August 05, 2005 at 7:04 PM by tjfujii@scif.com

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bheath55
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Joined: May 2005

Wednesday June 08, 2005 9:40 AM

Edited: Wednesday June 22, 2005 at 4:56 PM by bheath55

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tjfujii@scif.com
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Wednesday June 08, 2005 9:45 AM

Edited: Friday August 05, 2005 at 7:04 PM by tjfujii@scif.com

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majones
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Posts: 211
Joined: Mar 2005

Wednesday June 08, 2005 11:06 AM

I had a back injury case in which I knew the claimant was suffering from back pain so her injury was not in question. She was overweight and involved in a formal weight loss program which I agreed to. No exaggeration: Dr. Curtis gave prescriptions totalling $ 2300.00 (on the same day) for prescription meds and natural supplements for depression, fat burning, anxiety, sleep, high cholesterol, antacids, etc. He had her taking 2 rx meds and three supplements just for depression. I'm sure this lady rattled when she walked with all the pills she was taking.

M

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kinsey@socal.rr.com
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Joined: Oct 2002

Thursday June 09, 2005 7:40 AM

here is what I heard ... the whole issue surrouding Curits (and I also her Dr Waldman is in trouble and allegedly left the country) is billing practices. allegedly, Dr Curtis was charging for an hour of face to face time and accordng to records, he was seeing more than 40 patients or so a day (iwhich of course is impossible) he was also allegedly billing for services never rendered. And so was Waldman.

Of course the word here is "allegedly"

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imgbarbaras@covad.net
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Thursday June 09, 2005 8:57 AM

Dr. ? Waldman? Do you know the full name?

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kinsey@socal.rr.com
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Thursday June 09, 2005 9:54 AM

Stephen I believe - he works with Curtis, Nagelberg, Sobol, Capen... the usual "all star cast"

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bhinden
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Posts: 230
Joined: Aug 2003

Thursday June 09, 2005 10:05 PM

If it is proven that any doctor is really engaged in fraudulent billing, they deserve to be prosecuted. Trouble is, if the essence of the case against Dr. Curtis is that he billed more "face time" than would be possible to actually spend in one 24 hour day, then just about all med-legal examiners better be worried ... not to mention some defense attorneys. One of the dirty little secrets of WC is that "double billing" is rampant. "Double billing" is just a term of art. Sometimes, it actually comes out to quadruple or quintuple billing!! We are representing a former defense firm employee, and the stories he tells about their billing practices ... In addition, there is just no way that many defense mills (and one in particular comes to mind who has been Dr. Curtis' long-time "opposite number" on hundreds, if not thousands, of case) as well as many of the "trusted" (and thus very busy) AME's can spend as much "face time" in any given day with applicants as they bill defendants. At least phony billing is one evil A/A's can't be accused of!

On another note, here are MY nominations for the "all star cast": Nathan, Savodnik, Sanders, Fell, L. Silver, L. Woods, anyone with Parthenia Medical Group. Need I go on?

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

Edited: Friday June 10, 2005 at 7:21 AM by bhinden

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majones
Senior Member

Posts: 211
Joined: Mar 2005

Friday June 10, 2005 7:25 AM

I have to agree with Dr. Silver. I was thrilled with a report he issued on a claimant with a minor injury who was exaggerating. However, when I sent a truly injured worker to him for an honest opinion, the report was almost identical to the prior case. Needless to say, I've never used him again except for treatment. Abuse is everywhere and it stinks that it has to be this way.

M

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Amethyst
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Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Friday June 10, 2005 9:20 PM

Mr. Rondeau -

The doctors you're talking about are not "opposite numbers." Neither are they applicant or defense doctors in the real sense of the terms. They're just out for themselves and I doubt that any of them cares much for either applicants or defendants. It's just a matter of how they're able to get referrals and what they have to do to keep getting those referrals so they work hard to convince conscientious attorneys like yourself that they're really on the side of your clients. And as far as phony billing is concerned, yes, there are applicants' attorneys who belong to the same club and grossly pad petitions for voc rehab attorney fees. As long as insurance companies willingly pay these doctors, we're going to have a hard time getting rid of them.

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bhinden
Senior Member

Posts: 230
Joined: Aug 2003

Saturday June 11, 2005 9:27 AM

Hi, there, Amethyst.

I don't quite understand your point about the "all star" docs whose names have thusfar appeared on this thread. Perhaps you could elaborate. I understand that there are doctors in the system who are "in it for themselves". That goes without saying, but as to the balance of your comments ... .

I know that you're on the claims side, but you said nothing about defense doctor / attorney "double billing".

On the issue of voc rehab fees, come on, please. That's really "small potatoes". The average fees my firm receives (excluding fees on "delay rate" VRMA when defendants fail to comply with their statutory notice and other requirements) is between $600 (if the Applicant elects for a self-employment plan) to about $1,500 (if a retraining program is the choice). For that relatively meager compensation, we have take care of meeting with the QRR's, dealing with all of the applicant's related issues like getting their rehab mileage, etc., compensated, often filing RU-103's when disputes arise such as to "cap start dates". It's not "found money", believe me.

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

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Amethyst
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Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Sunday June 12, 2005 9:20 AM

You're undoubtedly a very smart man. I don't think my comments really need elaboration.

I can also see you belong to the "two wrongs make a right" school of ethical thought.

As for "small potatoes," it all depends on your point of view. In terms of the impact on the client's life, an applicant's attoney who rips $500 off his client by padding a petition for rehab attorney fees does greater harm than a defense attorney who rips $5,000 off an insurance company by padding a bill for legal services, even if it's just chump change for the attorney.

You may not do it, but there are those who do, and it's wrong no matter who else might be doing what to whom.

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tjfujii@scif.com
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Posts: 125
Joined: Dec 2002

Sunday June 12, 2005 10:40 AM

Edited: Friday August 05, 2005 at 7:05 PM by tjfujii@scif.com

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bhinden
Senior Member

Posts: 230
Joined: Aug 2003

Sunday June 12, 2005 11:18 PM

Well, Amethyst, thanks for the compliment about my smartness, but you're a little quick to judge me as a moral relativist. No, I don't think that "two wrongs make a right" ... three lefts do, however, when my wife points out that I just missed a turn.

But seriously, I don't condone fraudulent practices by anyone. I'm just sick and tired of the spotlight constantly being on applicants, applicants' attorneys, and applicants' treating doctors as "the problem" with the WC system while defendants, defense attorneys, and defense doctors are the pinnacles of virtue. So, please do me the courtesy of forbearing a snap judgment about the condition and quality of my moral compass.

As far as voc rehab fees, that's really the very definition of a "tempest in a teapot". Once again, I don't condone any fraudulent practices but degrees do matter. I appreciate your apparent empathy for the injured worker, but you're awfully quick to judge an applicant's attorney who "pads" a rehab fee petition as downright despicable while giving such an easy break to a defense attorney who bilks his/her client for $5K. Your judgments are inconsistent.

What evil will you decry next, fraudulent 5710 fee billing? Yeah, that's what's killing the WC system, right?

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

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Amethyst
Senior Member

Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Monday June 13, 2005 7:44 AM

Mr. Rondeau -

The only reason I brought up the subject of applicants attorneys padding rehab fee petitions is because you said, "At least phony billing is one evil A/A's can't be accused of!" which simply isn't true. Phony billing is something that some members of all groups can be accused of and rightly so. Applicants attorneys, as a group, are no better or worse than anyone else although I've noticed they tend to be a bit more defensive these days. I don't know you, but I know a lot of people who do know you and the reviews have all been favorable. The only point I was trying to make is that phony billing by doctors or lawyers on either side (or anyone else) does not benefit injured workers (or anyone else) and the only way to stop it is for the insurance companies to stop paying for it. Unfortunately, as long as they can get away with their own version of phony billing - i.e. passing the cost on to the employer - there may not be a lot of incentive for them to play it straight.

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bhinden
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Joined: Aug 2003

Monday June 13, 2005 11:59 PM

Fair, enough, Amethyst, I am sure you are right that there are some A/A's who engage in less than 100% kosher billing for VR fees (and probably for depo fees, too). I don't for a moment pretend to suggest that A/A's as a group are any more virtuous than D/A's. I know folks at both ends of the ethical spectrum on both sides.

I am delighted that to hear that (at least some) people speak well of me. I take my reputation and integrity very seriously. At the risk of sounding maudlin, one day each of us will be gone, and only the footsteps we leave in the sand -- the way people remember us -- will be left behind. Therefore, we should all tread carefully.

To reiterate, my frustration at this point is the constant drubbing of me, my clients, and the doctors willing to treat them on a lien basis as "the problem". My only point in making the prior comment about A/A's not being suceptible to accusation for fraudulent billing is that we seem to be accused of just about everything else that's wrong with the WC system. For example, we file applications alleging injury to numerous body parts. We refer clients for treatment by physicians who won't P & S them on the first visit w/2 Advils and a RTW w/o R's slip. We represent workers who have multiple, successive injuries You see what I'm getting at?

I just think that the dialogue about what's wrong about the WC system would be better advanced if the focus were not so myopic.

-------------------------
Charles R. Rondeau
Graiwer & Kaplan

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Amethyst
Senior Member

Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Tuesday June 14, 2005 6:30 AM

The problem is that everyone is more than ready to point the finger at everyone else without considering their own role in creating this mess. It would be much more productive for people to get together, figure out what they're doing that is self-defeating in the long run, and try to work out an approach to some of these SB 899 problems that would be in everyone's best interests. Of course, that would involve a certain amount of compromise, but sharing is something we were supposed to have learned in Kindergarten.

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laesquire
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Joined: Aug 2003

Tuesday June 14, 2005 10:59 AM

Compromise would be great!

Currently there is zero compromise by the "Govenator".

If there is any doubt look at what injured workers get for post 1- 1- 05 work injuries. The Permanent Disability schedule is a bad joke. The bad "joke" is on the injured worker. There is an argument of revising the Permanent Disability schedule. However the new schedule is an absolute slaughter of the injured workers benefits.

-------------------------
Any posting herein is NOT legal advice. It also does NOT create and attorney-client- relationship.

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2005

Tuesday June 14, 2005 2:12 PM

how did der fuehrer (sp?) get the democrats to lay down and give up on workers comp reform w/o a fight. i cant decide what is more frightening, having a fascist run this state or relying on spineless democrats to fight back....

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laesquire
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Tuesday June 14, 2005 5:30 PM

I think the Democrats are trying to pick the right time to fight back. The ballot measure for work comp. " reform " would has passed and very hard to fix.

Arnold is far more frightning than the Democrats.
______________________________________________________

Back on point to Dr. Curtis. Interesting how the Applicant Doctors are always the target of fraud investigations. Not the extreme wash out Defense Doctors.

-------------------------
Any posting herein is NOT legal advice. It also does NOT create and attorney-client- relationship.

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Amethyst
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Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Tuesday June 14, 2005 6:22 PM

Everything you say may be true, but the real question is what you're going to do about it. Filing lawsuits to compel revision of the PD schedule and the new apportionment rules may work and if it does, fine. But if it doesn't, what then? Revolution is probably not a feasible option, nor is placing an initiative on the ballot to undo the reforms. On the other hand, there are many attorneys, doctors, claims people and employers who would prefer to see the pendulum in the middle rather than on either side. Getting a dialogue going between fair-minded people with different interests in order to see what they could all live with, and doing it without recriminations or rhetoric, might lead to a consensus that would give the politicians an incentive to compromise. It might not work but it wouldn't cost anything and it wouldn't take any more time than accusing and complaining.

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tjfujii@scif.com
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Posts: 125
Joined: Dec 2002

Tuesday June 14, 2005 9:51 PM

Edited: Friday August 05, 2005 at 7:09 PM by tjfujii@scif.com

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2005

Wednesday June 15, 2005 8:39 AM

calling arnold der fuehrer was not an ethnic slur, but a description of the same type of populist bs that hitler used to get power... doesnt it frighten you that he is ignoring the legislative branch of government and going to the "people" to run this state... lets see, who are these "people" that arnold refers to..must be the hollywood crowd and big business people that pay 25 grand to eat with him... wake up people, we have a much more serious problem than international terrorism to worry about in this state.

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Amethyst
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Posts: 260
Joined: Mar 2004

Wednesday June 15, 2005 6:33 PM

Dear Compguy

Assuming you're right, what do you think could realistically be done to correct this serious problem?

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2005

Thursday June 16, 2005 8:27 AM

im a pessimist and the same people that made american idol a hit will vote for the lunkhead....what kind of country are we that we place such a great emphasis on celebrity status

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bheath55
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Joined: May 2005

Tuesday June 21, 2005 9:10 AM

Lest we forget the purpose of this forum topic: How is Dr. Curtis doing? Did he get his records back? Are his representatives still pursuing recovery for his liens?

Posts: 33
Joined: Jun 2002

Friday August 05, 2005 5:40 PM

Some background here:

I have only worked for carriers, with a strong emphasis on SIU type claims when I was an examiner, and I believe that there is way more "material misrepresentation" out there on the part of claimants, doctors and employers than any side wants to admit. I have personally handled cases where the docs turned out to be employees of fishmongers, real estate execs, 2 year residents masquerading as a QMEs, employers who have hid serious injuries to avoid premium increases, applicant attorneys knowingly concealing new employment by their clients--if it is there, I have a good track record of finding it.

In all of these case, I never publically or privately accused anyone of fraud. I did my investigation, completed the referrals as mandated by IC 1871 et eq if applicable, and moved forward. Until an conviction, any accusation may turn out to be wrong.

Considering the public nature of this forum, and the ease and venom with which everyone is tossing out names, with the implication that if App Doc must be a fraud then this defense Doc is even more of Fraud, or vice versa, everyone needs to take a step back.

I am not an attorney, but since these links can often be found via google (as this thread is--do a search on the original subject), and many of you are using some or all of your actual name, aren't some of you opening yourself up to accusations of libel?

Just a thought.

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Legallyblonde
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Joined: Nov 2005

Monday December 19, 2005 6:06 PM

Dr. Curtis is a doctor that stands by his convictions. I can't say that I have encountered anyone who has been able to get him to change his opinion once rendered. I truly respect him for this and would go to bat for him in any arena!

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employernurse
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Joined: Jul 2005

Wednesday December 21, 2005 10:56 AM

Dear Legally Blonde -

PLEASE!!!!
Dr. Curtis is a doctor that stands by his convictions. I can't say that I have encountered anyone who has been able to get him to change his opinion once rendered. I truly respect him for this and would go to bat for him in any arena!

What have you been smoking? Thomas Curtis is the absolute epitome of what was wrong with the old system. His reports are an absolute boiler plate -other than the initial sex, age and job duties of the alleged "IW". I used to see 4-6 reports a month from him at my old job and every one of them was identical with the identical symptoms and diagnosis (something like "anxiety, insomnia, etc - secondary to above") or some other nonsense.

Hopefully the DA or Ins Commission has been able to shut down the mill. I once had an IW tell me that on her first visit to the office, Dr Curtis told her and 3 other workers that they should "always be sure that you are wearing your neck braces, using your crutches and showing your level of discomfort if you are outside your house-, whether you need them or not, because you never know if someone is filming you"

YEA - that's an ethical, totally unbiased above board treater for you. Of coursehe is not going to change his opinion - he gets lot's of money for the hundreds of patients he treats for months and months and months............. that doesn't mean his opinion is right!

Edited: Wednesday December 21, 2005 at 11:01 AM by employernurse

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